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sorry but we need to gut this team

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  • #41
    Originally posted by flyerdog View Post
    that guy has to come from the draft..and usually at the top of the draft...the Ovechkin/Crosby/Stamkos/McDavids are not to be found in the middle of the first round...
    The irony in this being that only one of the players you listed has won a Cup... and that Voracek and Couturier come from the top of the Draft and not the middle.

    At some point, fans need to stop gutting a team because "our window is closing." If you always want them to gut the team because they haven't won a Cup and you're worried about not getting enough by trading your top players too late. At some point, you have to trust that teams are not always as far off as it seems. Teams can go from bubble playoff team to a deep playoff team quickly. It has happened a lot in past years, and it doesn't always happen with a #1 pick.

    At some point, people have to stop devaluing our players and overvaluing unknown commodities. If every 5 years people want to gut the team and make sure to get top value for our great players before they are "over the hill" then we will never get anywhere close to a Cup.

    People act like Giroux and Voracek are so close to being over the hill. It's kinda odd really.
    Last edited by dsl135; 01-28-2017, 10:22 AM.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by dsl135 View Post

      The irony in this being that only one of the players you listed has won a Cup... and that Voracek and Couturier come from the top of the Draft and not the middle.

      At some point, fans need to stop gutting a team because "our window is closing." If you always want them to gut the team because they haven't won a Cup and you're worried about not getting enough by trading your top players too late. At some point, you have to trust that teams are not always as far off as it seems. Teams can go from bubble playoff team to a deep playoff team quickly. It has happened a lot in past years, and it doesn't always happen with a #1 pick.

      At some point, people have to stop devaluing our players and overvaluing unknown commodities. If every 5 years people want to gut the team and make sure to get top value for our great players before they are "over the hill" then we will never get anywhere close to a Cup.

      People act like Giroux and Voracek are so close to being over the hill. It's kinda odd really.
      I agree with this completely. We are right where we want to be. Young players are getting injected into the lineup and G and Jake are still top players in this league and under 30. Next year the D will continue to evolve into a younger better version. I would like to see a better option at 1st LW (but that's not needed till we are ready to take next step) and the goaltending situation to be figured out as we could potentially lose both Mase and Neuvy to FA( maybe not a bad thing). Unload Del Zotto for deadline.
      sigpic

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      • #43
        Originally posted by flyerdog View Post

        past the knee jerk trade situations...

        Duchene would provide a young gifted forward who could grow with the nucleus of the team that Hexy is trying to build: Provo/TK/Ghost/Sanheim/Morin etc...I'd even add Simmonds to that list..as the Veteran leader...then if you trade away the core (Jake/G/Couts/Read/Raffl etc...) for picks..I'm saying I wouldn't be opposed to it...

        i agree that patience is required but there are also realities like G being past his prime by the time we are ready to compete genuinely...

        the consensus is that we need scoring depth, and a bonafide sniper...but again unless you are willing to sell the farm (and we've had enough of that!!)..that guy has to come from the draft..and usually at the top of the draft...the Ovechkin/Crosby/Stamkos/McDavids are not to be found in the middle of the first round...
        I guess I have to look a little closer... I thought Duchene was older than that. I agree with you that Giroux will be past his prime, and he might have even peaked already in the sense that I don't think he can drive a line all by himself anymore. I think it's because he is always playing hurt; and I think that is because teams take away his ice and space with impunity. Call me a troglodyte if you so wish, but I still believe defense and intimidation wins hockey games. Indulge me if you will: If your team has a top notch PK unit, you can afford to answer liberties taken against your star players. Beating the Flyers is easy right now, cheap shot Giroux, and then Wayne Simmons goes off the ice for 17 minutes in penalties, two birds with one stone! Build the PK, and get a cheap enforcer who's cap hit can be absorbed during suspensions. He doesn't have to play every game, but he should be taking numbers and settling scores as needed. Hockey is a fast paced collision sport, human nature being what it is will always need a pressure release valve. Plus Flyers fans identify with tough teams, not Sabrespeed.

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        • #44
          This rings so true, anyone remember the LA Kings; they were in a tail spin and Lombardi was about to be fired and then things started to turn around for the Kings and then they became contenders for a few years...they had coaching controversy, goal tending controversy, blueliner issues, farm players not living up to expectations, etc...now everyone adores how they accomplished a rebuild....a very fine line...

          Originally posted by dsl135 View Post

          The irony in this being that only one of the players you listed has won a Cup... and that Voracek and Couturier come from the top of the Draft and not the middle.

          At some point, fans need to stop gutting a team because "our window is closing." If you always want them to gut the team because they haven't won a Cup and you're worried about not getting enough by trading your top players too late. At some point, you have to trust that teams are not always as far off as it seems. Teams can go from bubble playoff team to a deep playoff team quickly. It has happened a lot in past years, and it doesn't always happen with a #1 pick.

          At some point, people have to stop devaluing our players and overvaluing unknown commodities. If every 5 years people want to gut the team and make sure to get top value for our great players before they are "over the hill" then we will never get anywhere close to a Cup.

          People act like Giroux and Voracek are so close to being over the hill. It's kinda odd really.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by EDMFLYERSFAN View Post
            This rings so true, anyone remember the LA Kings; they were in a tail spin and Lombardi was about to be fired and then things started to turn around for the Kings and then they became contenders for a few years...they had coaching controversy, goal tending controversy, blueliner issues, farm players not living up to expectations, etc...now everyone adores how they accomplished a rebuild....a very fine line...
            Bingo.

            What would Fred do?

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            • #46
              Originally posted by dsl135 View Post

              The irony in this being that only one of the players you listed has won a Cup... and that Voracek and Couturier come from the top of the Draft and not the middle.

              At some point, fans need to stop gutting a team because "our window is closing." If you always want them to gut the team because they haven't won a Cup and you're worried about not getting enough by trading your top players too late. At some point, you have to trust that teams are not always as far off as it seems. Teams can go from bubble playoff team to a deep playoff team quickly. It has happened a lot in past years, and it doesn't always happen with a #1 pick.

              At some point, people have to stop devaluing our players and overvaluing unknown commodities. If every 5 years people want to gut the team and make sure to get top value for our great players before they are "over the hill" then we will never get anywhere close to a Cup.

              People act like Giroux and Voracek are so close to being over the hill. It's kinda odd really.
              and here lies the problem there...some where..some times someone said along the lines of "we do not rebuild" ....this team hasn't properly been rebuilt..its been retooled...and 3 guys is not injecting youth into the team really

              as for G and Jake..of course people are going to react that way..they are both getting paid 8 million+ for what..40 points? again i am not arguing with actively trading them..but if the right deal came along..i would think about it...often times G is vastly invisible on ES and Jake might try to do too much...like i said...we need a 1b or second line center to help this team out ...much like the Phillies the Flyers hold on to some, not all, vets far too long with the fear ofd exposing young guys

              Jake, G and Simmer will all be 30+ when we are ready to legitimately contend..not old but not the spring chickens either

              in the end..for years now the mix on this team has been poor...so many of the same type of scrubs on the team..until that is fixed we are what we are..the Sixers of old..good enough to contend for a low PO spot but not bad enough to get the piece we need in the draft

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              • #47
                Originally posted by dsl135 View Post

                The irony in this being that only one of the players you listed has won a Cup... and that Voracek and Couturier come from the top of the Draft and not the middle.

                At some point, fans need to stop gutting a team because "our window is closing." If you always want them to gut the team because they haven't won a Cup and you're worried about not getting enough by trading your top players too late. At some point, you have to trust that teams are not always as far off as it seems. Teams can go from bubble playoff team to a deep playoff team quickly. It has happened a lot in past years, and it doesn't always happen with a #1 pick.

                At some point, people have to stop devaluing our players and overvaluing unknown commodities. If every 5 years people want to gut the team and make sure to get top value for our great players before they are "over the hill" then we will never get anywhere close to a Cup.

                People act like Giroux and Voracek are so close to being over the hill. It's kinda odd really.
                You don't NEED a number one pick, but better players are more likely to win, and the higher their draft order the more likely they are to be good. So drafting middle of the pack every year doesn't seem destined to result in a good chcance at a championship. I actually would love to see statistics on how your end of year place in the standings in previous years are predictive of your chance at winning a cup. I suspect you need to have been really good or really bad recently to win a cup.

                But I wasn't talking about draft position anyway, I'm talking about the idea of window. Sure there are teams like Carolina, or Tampa, or Boston (3 cups), who kinda pull it together one year. But there's a lot more Wings, Hawks, Pens, Kings, Avalanche, Jersey, Dallas (17) who are consistently good for a long period. Its hard to win a cup. You need to build a strong nucleus of players who move thru their prime together so you can have a lot of cracks at it. (I dunno where you put the Ducks because of how much they're transitioned but it helps when you have ATLEAST 3 HoFers).

                From a personnel perspective there are a lot of things you want to win a cup, generally.
                a) A true #1D who tilts the ice
                b) A reliable stable of 4-5 D with varied skills behind that #1
                c) An elite top line that creates matchup problems for the opposition
                d) Opportunistic scoring down-line who can excel against sub-par defense
                f) A goaltender who consistently gives the all-he-should-stop-and-a-few-he-shouldnt performance
                h) And you need them all under reasonable contract with a few undermarket ones as well, usually from skilled young players on ELCs
                i) And then all have to like each other...!
                j) And you need a head coach who puts all those players in a place to succeed with the skillsets they have

                Now, not *EVERY* piece needs to be there. But I find it hard to see how we're getting 7 of those 8 from staying the course. Could happen no doubt... I just think we're more likely to get there, and stay there, if we can recycle some of our current in-prime assets.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by dsl135 View Post

                  The irony in this being that only one of the players you listed has won a Cup... and that Voracek and Couturier come from the top of the Draft and not the middle.

                  At some point, fans need to stop gutting a team because "our window is closing." If you always want them to gut the team because they haven't won a Cup and you're worried about not getting enough by trading your top players too late. At some point, you have to trust that teams are not always as far off as it seems. Teams can go from bubble playoff team to a deep playoff team quickly. It has happened a lot in past years, and it doesn't always happen with a #1 pick.

                  At some point, people have to stop devaluing our players and overvaluing unknown commodities. If every 5 years people want to gut the team and make sure to get top value for our great players before they are "over the hill" then we will never get anywhere close to a Cup.

                  People act like Giroux and Voracek are so close to being over the hill. It's kinda odd really.
                  well, just because a player has not won a championship doesn't mean they aren't still franchise players...and with Jake we had to trade a first rounder to get him..as with Simmonds and Schenn...but again..Hexy is building a good nucleus, and patience is the key...but we are seeing far too much indifference from our top guys (minus Wayne)

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                  • #49
                    I disagree 100% that it's indifference we see. When you have 3.5 world class players having to carry the offense load for 82 games with a bunch of uncreative 4th liners, it's only human to get frustrated, down and a bit apathetic at times. These aren't machines.

                    G, Jake, Simmer +. 5 Schenn

                    TK is exciting but will have some growing pains. All other O players drag this team down.
                    .
                    .
                    "Perry the Platypus! I swear, of all the aquatic mammals I hang with, you are TRULY the most uncooperative!" - Dr. Doofenshmirtz

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                    • #50
                      Scrape it.....

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